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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jul 9, 2004 13:13:51 GMT 1
Any suggestions, Vera, to persuade my little inbred 3/4 foxhound X Staffie x rescue that she doesn't need to announce her presence to the whole village dog community the moment she exits the house? For a pint-sized pooch, she has a very bold and determined personality and an ego the size of a highly confident Rottie. As she's no bigger than an average sized Jack Russell terrier, and really has the sweetest of natures, never being without a wagging tail, he behaviour is really a danger to herself. She knows every house where a dog lurks behind a door or window and will set them all off barking or leaping at their doors/windows. Here she is challenging a grumpy terrier who is sounding off behind his back garden gate... and if I speak sharply to her she gives me a rather defiant look like this... and probably a mouthful to put me in my place! In the pictures she doesn't look as if she has a tail at all, but that's because it is wagging so fast the camera couldn't capture it! She behaves like this on or off lead, but is probably worse when on the lead. Only one dog - a male Rottie, chained up and in the gateway of a motor repair place - seems to have had the ability to silence her. I don't think he even had to make a sound to do so, a look was enough! Perhaps she fancied his good looks? Any suggestions? Thanks. Al
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Post by skybabe on Jul 9, 2004 13:49:01 GMT 1
Sorry I haven't any real advice, just that it sounds very familiar ie I have just come off the phone to a trainer/behaviourist as similar behaviour from my small, 12 month old, collie x got her into serious trouble (ie head and neck firmly clamped between the jaws of a large and really pissed off male staffie).
It was all my fault of course, but at least now we are seeking (very expensive) help. I'd definately recommend ringing a professional, as they usually give some good pointers and advice over the phone. Good luck!
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Post by LurcherGirl on Jul 9, 2004 14:04:15 GMT 1
Alison, give me a little while for a response. All I am going to say right now: staff/terrier cross is an explosive mixture... Will get back to you.
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jul 9, 2004 17:13:42 GMT 1
Thanks, Vera. Skybabe, Vera is our on-board, professional canine behaviourist, so perhaps whatever suggestions she comes up with will prove helpful to you with your dog, too? Someone has suggested that I make Kira a little elastic halti-style headcollar, so I'll give that a try. If nothing else it may make her think twice about sounding off. Will let all know if that works. Off lead and over on the old, reclaimed colliery site where we often walk, she can meet other dogs and greet them nicely, then play happily with them. I can even stop and chat with other dog owners there and with our dogs on lead and she's quite good. Really a very friendly little thing, although of late I've noticed her growl at the other dogs in the house if she has a chew and they come too close. I'd say that since my old 'alpha' bitch went to the bridge back last March, Kira's personality has become the dominant one in the main part of the house. Out on the yard though, and with the other two dogs, Megan, the staffie X Lab bitch still tends to bully Kira and throw her weight around, being a much heavier - but much less intelligent - animal. However, Moss, the BC, seems to take Kira's side in the house and Megan's outside on the yard! Guess he's as confused as I am by the girls? Al
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Post by LurcherGirl on Jul 16, 2004 9:09:19 GMT 1
Alison, sorry for the delay. I have had a hectic week with my rabbit needing emergency dental treatment last Saturday and then wouldn't eat until Tuesday when I started syringe feeding him (not eating for more than 12 hours can be fatal for a rabbit). Thankfully he is now back to normal since Wednesday. Then I also have a sick hamster that is a total puzzle as my vet cannot give a diagnosis even after a string of tests... so all very worrying. But here I am!
Alison, I need some more info:
1. How old is your dog? 2. How long have you had her? 3. Where did you get her from? 4. What do you feed her (including treats)? 5. What is your exercise regime with her? How many walks a day, how long, where? 6. What is your general routine throughout the day? 7. Is she very lively, even hyperactive in the house? All the time? At certain times? 8. Has she ever had any formal training? 9. Are there other things she does/doesn't do that bother you? Anything that you think your ideal dog shouldn't do (even if it is not a huge problem to you, please mention it)?
Skybabe, if you would like to answer the above questions as well, you are more than welcome to it and I will do my best to help.
Vera
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jul 16, 2004 12:13:34 GMT 1
Goodness, what a lot of questions! Here we go...
1. How old is your dog? Kira is four years and four months old.
2. How long have you had her? I've had her since she was 6-7 weeks old.
3. Where did you get her from? Kira was originally a fostered rescue and thought to be deformed, so was going to be pts. I was convinced she simply had severe rickets and asked if I could have her for a couple of weeks to see what I could do.
4. What do you feed her (including treats)? She gets a complete, balanced dry dog food for adult dogs and, as she and Moss, the working BC tend not to eat a lot at once or clear their bowls and Megan the Staffie x Lab is a voracious eater, I've found it best to feed them all ad-lib this way to avoid Megan gorging and bullying the others. For treats they get hide chews or pigs ears 2 - 3 times a week and occasional cracked eggs fed raw and from the chickens. Perhaps occasional kitchen scraps. (Megan also steals raw veg, tomatos, bananas etc. if she gets the chance!)
5. What is your exercise regime with her? How many walks a day, how long, where? Kira has three walks a day. She accompanies me around the poultry usually twice taking about 1/2 hour each time and, depending on how I am on a particular day (i.e. able to walk or needing to drive) down the the horses, which is roughly 3/4 hour walking and with her able to race around off-lead for most of the way there and back. She also has access to the back yard at other times of the day and last thing at night for 'toilet' duties. I daren't take her out for a walk last thing, as she'd wake the dead, let alone the neighbours, the noise she makes!
6. What is your general routine throughout the day? On an ideal day and once mobile (I'm not always so in the mornings) it would be around the poultry with Kira, feeding and collecting eggs; home - when Kira is no trouble at all and really quite laid back and lazy while I do whatever else I need to. (My ex OH takes the other two dogs out and often all day) I see to the horses in the afternoon and then the poultry again in the evenings. It is on the trips to the poultry that most problems arise and when passing the houses enroute to the tracks leading down to the stables. Once off-lead and away from houses, she is fine and even has good recall if she chases rabbits or squirrels, meets up with other dogs etc.
7. Is she very lively, even hyperactive in the house? All the time? At certain times? Kira is very quiet and well-behaved in the house, laid back, even lazy! She does bark if someone knocks the door or there is noise outside late at night, such as rowdiness with people going home from the pub.
8. Has she ever had any formal training? No.
9. Are there other things she does/doesn't do that bother you? Anything that you think your ideal dog shouldn't do (even if it is not a huge problem to you, please mention it)? She has learned to hunt out stolen nests (chickens laying out where they shouldn't) and used to alert me to those until realising what eggs tasted like! Now she steals the eggs and runs off to hide while she scoffs eggs! I can cope with that and her occasional over exhuberance herding the chickens, ducks and gander into their sheds for the night. It's the racket and pulling/jerking/leaping around and bouncing/somersaulting against house walls on the lead that I find difficult. She does know better and CAN walk sensibly when she chooses. She used to do so when she walked out with me and the old lurcher.
Hope this helps?
Al
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Post by LurcherGirl on Jul 16, 2004 14:05:59 GMT 1
Al, sorry for being a nuissance:
What brand do you use?
Vera
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jul 16, 2004 15:00:26 GMT 1
Al, sorry for being a nuissance: What brand do you use? Vera It's a local supplier's own brand and marked as 'premium quality', 22% protien, Vera. Al
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Post by LurcherGirl on Jul 16, 2004 16:06:02 GMT 1
Any artificial ingredients in it like preservatives, colours, flavours... ? Protein level sounds about right, but might be an idea to drop it in this particular case to about 18% to take some of her energy away... I will work out a plan over the week-end for you and will then post it! Vera
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jul 16, 2004 18:00:31 GMT 1
I tried the 'Regular' 18% protein brand and all bar Megan turned their noses up at it! Ate it only under protest and as there was nothing else on offer! Even then I had to make a gravy to pour over it befre they'd pick at it. There are no additives or artifical colourants in the food they have, according to the label. As she's so laid back in the house and the problem strikes only when out and around houses, perhaps it's not food at all at the root of the problem? Al
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Post by LurcherGirl on Aug 13, 2004 22:44:53 GMT 1
Sorry for the long delay, Alison. I haven't forgotten at all, just haven't been on-line for almost two months... Now I am back and can hopefully post a full answer this week-end! ;D
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Post by LurcherGirl on Aug 22, 2004 13:33:43 GMT 1
Right, let's see what I can come up with: I will look at all areas, leadership, socialisation, obedience, other. Leadership:Make sure that Kira gets nothing for nothing. In other words, she has to work for everything. Make her sit or anything else for a treat. When you put her on the lead to go out, again make her sit and wait camly until you leave etc. She needs to learn that she won't get anything unless she complies with what you want her to do. (It doesn't always have to be a treat, it can be a toy, a walk, a game etc. Think of things that she loves and use them as rewards rather than let her think of them as her right). Socialisation:I don't think there is a major issue with socialisation. I think the pulling and barking is just a matter of leadership and basic good manners! Obedience:Teach Kira to look at you on command. This is very important as you will need this to do specific training outdoors to address her issues. Start off indoors when she is calm and relaxed. Hold a treat (very high value treat to start off with like cheese, sausage etc.) in your hand, a little to the side. Say "Look" just once, then wait. Kira will look at it and look at it and look at it... but eventually she should look at you, even if just for a fraction of a second to find out why she is not getting the treat. When she looks at you, praise immediately saying "Good luck" and give her the treat. Timing is absolutely vital. Once she does that easily, extend the time period she needs to look at you to get the treat. When it all works well, start teaching her the same thing in other rooms of the house, in the garden, outdoors. You will probably struggle in situations where she is very distracted at first. But you will get there. Obviously other bits and pieces like sit, down etc help too. Also teach her to heel properly. Again start off indoors, and slowly do the same outdoors eventually. Don't forget that dogs don't generalise well. Just because your dog knows how to sit indoors, doesn't mean she can do it outdoors or in different places. You need to teach your dog an exercise over and over again in different situations. Only once they do it everywhere, in all situations you can really say your dog is trained and knows that particular exercise. I know this is really hard at times, but it is a fact and we all need to remember it when we teach our dogs new things. In general, doing some obedience helps improve the relationship with a dog, it becomes closer, it all becomes more teamwork rather than "I say, you do" by the owner and "I don't really care what you say" by the dog... Now what to do to sort out the pulling and barking: As soon as she starts pulling, turn back a few steps until the lead is slack. When she walks nicely and calmly, praise her/give a treat and keep walking. You might find that a 5-minute walk takes half an hour. Set time aside for just that. You might want to start it indoors, then in the garden, eventually outside. But you must be 100% consistent. It will work in the end. If you feel that you get dizzy ;D, because you have to do it so often, you may want to just take a few steps backwards instead of actually turning around. Whenever she walks nicely, even if it is just one step, praise her and give her a treat. Re barking: you can start on this one once the "look" command works well. As soon as she starts barking, say "look" (you also might have to take a few steps back to get her head turned into your direction), get her to look at you for a few seconds (might just be one seconds to start off with), then give her a treat. Keep doing this. The effect should be in the end that as soon as she sees something that she would like to bark at, she comes to you or turns her head to get a treat. You must make sure though that you give her a treat every single time (until a few months down the line). You will need to feed her one treat after the other whilst she would like to bark and until the distraction has passed (or you have passed to distraction). And to start off it has to be a very, very high value treat, if possible something she never gets at any other time. You might want to start putting one kind of treat aside just for that!!! (Once she gets the hang of it and it becomes easier, you can use lower value treats or even her regular kibbles, which is what I often do with Dylan now). (I had to do this same thing with Dylan, who was chasing trams. Every time I heard a tram, I called him straight back and kept feeding him until the tram has passed and gone. Eventually he came back when he heard it without my prompt, to get the treat. Now I can even call him back from a tram chase without problems and most of the time he ignores them and looks at me. So it does work.) I hope this helps Alison. It is not going to happen overnight and it will be tough. But we need to get into her head that if she checks with you she will get a reward, if she barks she doesn.t. Therefore, do not tell her off or talk to her at all when she barks as this will only enforce it. Simply say "look" and do that exercise. Instead of teaching her to stop barking (which would be one way of doing it), we replace her behaviour (barking) with something else (look at you and get a treat). This is more positive and will in her case have a better effect I think than tell her to stop barking. Let me know how it goes and don't hesitate to ask if there are any questions relating to this program. Vera
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Aug 22, 2004 14:48:40 GMT 1
Thanks, Vera. I'll print this out and have a good read as soon as I can do so. Al
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Aug 31, 2004 18:29:48 GMT 1
Well, several pounds of sausage and cheese down the line and the 'look' command seems to be getting somewhere when in the house. Indeed, Kira has now added additional sounds to her vocabulary whilst awaiting her treat and that make it a bit hard to decide when is the right time to give it to her, as she won't sit still and be quiet! The noises are not the usual whiny ones that most dogs make, but quite tuneful verses, it seems, and accompanied by bottom shuffling wriggles! Outside is another story. Kira still much prefers baiting the 'beasts behind the doors' to having the titbits or paying any attention to me and the habit seems to be infectious, as now Scampi has started giving two barks when we pass one particular gateway! (The one in the picture.) At least he will be quiet the moment I speak, and does listen in advance if I'm quick enough to stop him. Al
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Post by LurcherGirl on Aug 31, 2004 23:10:23 GMT 1
These things don't happen over night... but I am sure you know that. If she already does it nicely indoors, that's a start. Well done for teaching her that so quickly. Just make sure that you use a short praise word (ie yes) at exactely the right moment - when she is quiet even if just for a couple of seconds. The give her the treat! It's a bit like clicker training, but instead of a click you use a short word like yes. Your girlie sounds like a clever girl, so I am sure she will be responsive outdoors as well - although that will take a good while! Persistency is the key! Let us know how you get on. Vera
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Post by LurcherGirl on Sept 16, 2004 14:27:34 GMT 1
Alison, just wondering whether there is any progress at all...
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Sept 16, 2004 14:46:18 GMT 1
Er... Kira has put on weight! Outside it seems she's still rather incite a riot than have a treat, though. Scampi seems to take his cue from Kira, whom he's become very attached to, and at times tries to back her up by giving a 'woof' as we pass the back doors and unless I only have him with me. Al
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Oct 3, 2004 11:31:37 GMT 1
Progress! But perhaps not of the sort I'd hoped for. Today I set out to see to the poultry laden with Scampi's lead in my left hand and Kira's, my walking stick and a large bag of empty carrier bags & eggs boxes in my right. (This because Scampi seems afraid of things dangling around him as we walk and Kira has never had a fear of anything!) Anyway, madam was in a particularly over-exhuberant mood and challenging the world, diving around in her excape-proof harness and giving evey dog in sight a load of the verbals! (All with a wagging tail!) Anyway, I had her on a really short lead and her girations kept bringing her into contact with the bag of carrier bags. These she actually seemed a bit wary of and each contact caused a pause in her performance. By the time we came to the lane down to the allotments and where she usually tries to threaten all the dogs behind their own gateways, she was giving the bags a sideways glance before trying to lunge at the doors, so I have them a shake and... would you believe it, she had second thoughts?! I did it each time we passed a gateway with a dog behind it. Then, on the way back, I also had a carrier bag with a couple of full egg boxes in it so couldn't really shake those, just give it a little rattle as we appraoched the first doggy door. However, Kira wasn't even paying it any attention! We passed all the doors with her totally ignoring those dogs! I can't believe it! Weeks of having her ignore me completely in those circumstances... Al
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Post by LurcherGirl on Oct 6, 2004 8:40:00 GMT 1
To put a technical term to it all: you used aversion... It is a last resort normally and works in many situations. If nothing else works as in your case - you have tried for months now - then aversion is the next step... nothing wrong with that as long as it is properly used, which you have done in your case! How has it been going in the meantime? Vera
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Oct 6, 2004 10:57:22 GMT 1
Well, I do believe there's been quite a bit of progress, Vera!
Kira is now looking at me as we approach the gateways and taking heed of my 'No' command! On the way back from the allotment last night she showed much less interest in those gateways. However, in paying her more attention as we passed, Scampi did have a little lunge and 'woof' at the one doorway. That is where a particularly grumpy male terrier lives. He will listen immediately if I say 'No', but actually cowers in a way quite out of proportion to the tone of the command, leading me to think that, at some point in his past life, he may well have been beaten. He is much more sensitive than Kira is to many things, and probably not as independant or intelligent.
Mind you, I have noticed that Kira learns things only by getting hurt (pride-wise or physically) or startled. For example, the other day around the chickens she was paying so much attention to smelling a chicken's rather messy bottom that she failed to notice Gerry, the gander, had spotted her. He grabbed her by the ear - and she has quite large, floppy ones, so he could get a good grip with his beak. Kira's one of those dogs who is tough as old boots and I don't think I've ever heard her really yelp in pain until then! I had to intervene before the gander would let go and since then Kira has stood politely by the gate to that run until the birds are locked up for the night! Previously she's been known to see the gander as 'sport' to play games of tag-tail with! Trying to get behind him unnoticed and mouth his tail as he'd previously only ever managed to connect his beak with her rotund, well padded bottom! Indeed, Gerry's job is to protect the other birds from cats etc., when they are out and most of the other dogs are naturally quite intimidated by him, even the collie, Moss.
Another time she leapt onto a stack of timber planks, toppling some of those with a great clatter and causing her to fall. She wasn't hurt, just startled, but she's not leapt up on those or similar things since. Neither has she jumped onto the kitchen table since doing so and sending some crockery crashing to the floor. No amount of 'down' or 'no' commands, picking her up and putting her back on the floor worked until then, she'd simply defy me and jump straight back up! The only way she'd stop then was to use diversion tactics.
Al
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