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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jun 28, 2008 14:14:26 GMT 1
Does anyone here suffer from varicose veins or oedema? If so, how would you like to significantly improve or even LOSE those and help a rescue at the same time? No, this is NOT a wind up! By participating in a simple challenge that involves posting photos of your varicose veins here in this thread, then raising the head end of your bed 6", so that you sleep at a slight angle, and reporting regularly on any changes you notice, you can WIN a parcel of goodies for the rescue of your choice! These are some rather poor quality photos that show my varicose veins and the oedema present in my legs following my recent surgery, and I am keen to try out what Andrew K Fletcher has discovered about the way gravity can produce a remarkable and significant improvement in these conditions - and others, too. My left leg: My right leg - although the Varicose veins don't show up well here due to the oedema: My right ankle, which again doesn't show here how the purpley-blue dots represent veins damaged in an accident when I was 16 years of age, and normally stand proud of my ankle: You can read more about Inclined Bed Therapy by googling Andrew K Fletcher and IBT and at this link: Why do Varicose Veins shrink during Inclined Bed Therapy?I'll invite Andrew over here to act as the adjudicator for this challenge, and it will be up to him then to decide winners here, and there is NO LIMIT to how many of us can win for our favourite rescues. Andrew will be looking for anecdotal evidence to support his theories, and this possibly to include in a book that could have a huge impact on the lives of many people currently undergoing surgery at great expense to the NHS, so there are potentially massive benefits to everyone, as well as to rescues at stake here. Participants on behalf of named Rescue:
Old Dragon (Al) - for Tailends. Owl - for Ceredigion Animal Rescue. (Refuge)
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Post by Viv on Jun 28, 2008 14:29:33 GMT 1
This sound fantastic and my knees and ankles swell so much I would love to try it, but cant see a way of raising my bed end without annoying hubby or the 3 bullies who now sleep on our bed nightly. Will have a word with hubby when he gets home
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jun 28, 2008 14:41:12 GMT 1
Viv, I share with two dogs, and they will just have to kip on the floor if they don't like it! As for the other half... Mike's keen to try it for reasons other than varicose veins. Have a read of all the info and watch this: www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3D7tBQfCxQ - if Keith's still not convinced, there's always the spare room. ;D
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Post by Viv on Jun 28, 2008 16:02:58 GMT 1
What spare room lol
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jun 28, 2008 16:50:14 GMT 1
How about banishing him to the sofa then, Viv? ;D Mind you, I can't see Keith objecting to something that could help his 'dearly beloved' so much... Whatever happened to those vows he made of 'To love and to cherish... In sickness and in health...' etc? (Does he know the fate of the Wolf Shaman, Viv? ;D ) Not that I would DREAM of dropping any hints, Viv... for the reality is... I just DID! pmsl )
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lindsey
Wolf Team Member
Posts: 377
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Post by lindsey on Jul 6, 2008 21:10:50 GMT 1
Al, I had a varicose vein in my thigh tied off when I was in my 20s (they were going to strip it out but decided not to), it's still visible 20 years on but isn't painful and is nowhere near as obtrusive (is that the right word?) as it used to be
I just can't get my head round tilting the bed down and not up, it doesn't make sense
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Post by andrewkfletcher on Jul 7, 2008 10:25:48 GMT 1
Read the thread on NakedScientists, I have explained how solutes alter the pressure inside the veins and arteries as gravity pulls them through the circulatory systems. Solutes flowing down will cause a positive pressure inside the vessels. As most of the solutes flow from the gut down the arteries (this being the reason that arteries clog up) they will induce a positive pressure inside the artery, but the artery wall is strong and can cope with a positive pressure, unlike the vein which can’t. The solutes cannot flow down the artery without causing a dragging effect on the rest of the fluids in the circuit and in doing so induce a return flow in the veins under a increased tension and therefore the pressure inside the vein is reduced. When the body is flat, these solutes still enter the arteries from our diet but gravity is running through the arteries horizontally causing a dragging effect on the circulation and causing the circulation to slow down. This is the time when arteries fur up with fatty deposits. This is also the time when solutes remain inside the kidneys, bladder and gall bladder and form as stones. Tilting the bed causes veins to become depressurised and in doing so lowers the pressure inside the vein to less than the pressure inside the surrounding skin and muscle tissue. What we have created here is a straw sucking on an excess of fluid in the limbs drawing the oedema back from the skin and into the vein, the exact opposite of what caused the oedema in the first place which is an increased pressure inside the vein and fluid moving from the vein into the surrounding tissue. The same applies to the lymphatic system. So why does the vein swell when we lay flat? Because the heart is a pump and a pump will apply positive pressure to both the artery and the veins when thee is no assistance from gravity. www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=7631.msg137100Someone asking a question and ignoring an answer that solves the problem. www.newmediaexplorer.org/chris/2006/10/29/wipe_out_kidney_stones.htmKidney stones removal. Add to this a small glass of olive oil to lubricate the removal of the broken down stones. www.bio-medicine.org/biology-news/U-of-M-study-examines-kidney-stone-prevention-in-astronauts-3016-1/As the space shuttle Discovery prepares to launch on July 1, researchers at the University of Minnesota have identified a way for astronauts to reduce their risk of developing kidney stones while in space. Astronauts lose calcium in their bones and strength in their muscles while in space because of the zero-gravity environment. This calcium can end up in their kidneys, putting them at risk for developing kidney stones. At least 14 American crew members have developed kidney stones in the last 5 years, and as missions become longer, the number is likely to grow. While astronauts have exercised in space to attempt to combat bone loss, the lack of gravity makes it difficult to achieve enough resistance to maintain their pre-flight fitness levels. "This becomes a real health concern, as the time astronauts spend in space and living in the space station is extended," said Manoj Monga, M.D., professor of urologic surgery and lead investigator. The study will be published in the July 2006 print issue of the Journal of Urology and is available online now. Kidney stones are mineral deposits in the kidneys that can travel through the urinary tract, causing intense pain. One of the most common types of kidney stones is caused by the buildup of calcium oxalate. Researchers studied the effects of exercise in pairs of identical twins, since a portion of a person's risk for developing kidney stones is genetic. The study participants had no history of kidney stones and were placed on standardized diets. The twins were put on bed rest on a tilted bed that positioned their head lower than their feet to simulate low gravity for 30 days. One twin per pair was randomly selected to exercise (while still reclining) in a chamber that put negative pressure, or resistance on their lower body, and the other twin served as a non-exercising control. The pressure in the chamber was roughly equivalent to what a person would experience running on
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Post by murtle on Jul 7, 2008 16:22:24 GMT 1
Can I ask why varicose veins are caused by "standing on your feet for long periods of time"? or is this an old wives tale?? Thanks - ps I don't have varicose veins, but interested to get my head round this research as it goes against so many reasons for lifting legs not lowering them Has any research been done internally to see what happens to the veins inside if they "are being pulled in" is there any long term effect on them?? Thanks M
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Post by andrewkfletcher on Jul 7, 2008 17:34:39 GMT 1
I think there is some merit in standing for prolonged periods of time causing veins to swell but it may not be as obvious why this is happening and is often attributed to pooling of blood.
But we have a circular system, so if blood is pooling around the lower limbs something must be restricting the flow through the veins and causing back pressure.
Could this be the pressure on the tissue surrounding the veins in the feet, caused by the weight of a person standing in one position for too long? If this were the case, then the circulation might be compromised further and cause a person to collapse? Weddings, where a groom or bride stand motionless for longer than usual sometimes succumb to this and have been featured on short videos on TV. Guards standing to attention have learned to move their weight from one foot to another to avoid collapsing on duty. Again simply moving the weight like this would suffice to relieve the pressure and allow the system to function better.
Another point is that when a person has been on their feet all day they like nothing better than coming home to put their feet up, especially when the literature advises them that this is the best thing to do.
A giraffe for example stands on its feet and seldom lays down at all. One would thing with its massive height and impressive circulation it too would have varicose veins, yet it does not. NASA in fact are studying the animal to try to understand why it does not have problems with bulging veins. In the Giraffes leg the veins are closer to the bone than in humans and therefore have more muscle and tissue to hold in the pressure (It Is Thought by the NASA Scientists) Yet they still have to solve how those veins develop closer to the bones in the Giraffe. Could it be that the pressure inside the veins does not increase as predicted by the animal’s height? Indeed this appears to be the case. So if the pressure is much lower in the veins than the surrounding muscle and tissue the veins will not bulge and oedema will not form. But more to the point the pressure inside the muscles and skin will be higher than the vein and this should be able to explain why the veins remain closer to the animals bones while the animal grows to adult size. An analogy of this is a bench I once saw secured to a tree for many years. The tree had grown around the bench and a huge portion of it was inside the tree completely engulfed by the trees production line of tiny tubes we see as the grain in timber.
I have no idea of what the longer term effects might be beyond a start date of 1994, but I can say that my wifes veins no longer ache or bulge as shown in the photographs on NS Forum. Andrew K Fletcher
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jul 11, 2008 19:13:12 GMT 1
Well, after only 8 nights of sleeping on my inclined bed, I have been amazed by several changes already apparent - and not just in my veins/legs either. After 7 of the 8 nights, I have slept for at least 4 - 5 hours and woken naturally feeling REFRESHED by the sleep! That is a big change for me, as I often struggle to sleep at all and, having fibromyalgia, almost always wake feeling as if I've not slept at all. Since starting the trail, I actually feel as if I have some energy for a change... that's a bit of a novelty for me! The small, bobbly blue veins in my right ankle that resulted after a riding accident when I was 16 have disappeared! The oedema in my legs/calves has reduced by up to 5.5cms! Tenderness in the area of my varicose veins has reduced considerably, and I have even risked kneeling down to do thngs a couple of times and with no problem at all. (In the past this action has resulted in a bout of phelbitis.) The pain and inflammation, plus the fibro related 'hot spots' in my upper back (thoracic and lower cervical vertebrae) and shoulders has not affected me. (Immediately prior to the trial, I felt as if the area had been scalded and could hardly bear even a light T-shirt on that.) The arthritic pain in my feet, ankles and knees has disappeared! The low grade aching in my lumbar spine - L4 - S1 - appears to be reducing slightly. My blood pressure has been steadily reducing, similarly pulse rate and respiration. I have lost a little over 3lbs in weight, and without any particular changes to my diet! (Which is a reasonably healthy eating plan, with a few naughty indulgences here and there. ) So far, I've not noticed any negatives. Even the dogs haven't complained about the change to the angle of their sleeping arrangements. Would I go back to sleeping on a horizontal bed...? Not if I can help it! ;D
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jul 12, 2008 13:27:26 GMT 1
I over-did things yesterday, and now have a really achy lower back, but my oedema hadn't increased last night, for all that, and despite being on my feet a lot during the day and rushing around.
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Post by andrewkfletcher on Jul 13, 2008 10:16:36 GMT 1
Thanks for providing us with your regular updates. They make interesting reading and hopefully will provide valuable data together with other reports and eventually force a long overdue clinical trial. RE your oedema not increasing as you say by all accounts should have given that you overdid things Can't teach a granny how to suck eggs The aching back may be the aches and pains others have reported following the first week possibly due to a more upright posture emerging due to traction from the bed. Oedema according to the literature as it stands should become more prominent the longer your on your feet. Yet as you have observed this may not always be the case. Feel free to use any of my work on this subject that has been published on line as you see fit. The more people that get to learn about this the quicker we can force a study. I have had my first reply letter from the Direct Communications Department at 10 Downing Street advising that my letter has been forwarded to the Department of Health. Fingers crossed. Andrew
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jul 13, 2008 13:23:10 GMT 1
Fingers crossed indeed, Andrew.
I am about to probably over do things again this afternoon. Walking boots at the ready and meeting Amy soon for a tour and reccy of a muddy building site and the local area, which has huge potential for various group activities.
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Post by lizzies on Jul 18, 2008 6:08:13 GMT 1
I read this with great interest, but not sure I can really contribute anything I had a vein stripped out of my right leg in my early 30's, but was warned it might recur (leaky valve in my groin ) have never thought about raising the bed, hmmm, will dicuss it with o/h...anything to get a decent night sleep, being a shift worker my sleep patterns are hit-and-miss at the best of times (anyone got any tips for the thread veins on my shin??? lol)
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Post by Old Dragon (Al) on Jul 18, 2008 10:17:32 GMT 1
My sleep pattern has changed immeasurably for the better since doing the IBT, and I know of a few others who are discovering the same thing, too. As for thread veins - mine have also improved! You may also find improvements to the valve's functioning, too. Andrew is on holiday at present, but in your position, I'd certainly have a go and try it for yourself. I am very glad that I have, and have no desire to return to sleeping on the flat again. It seems to be working wonders for my circulation.
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Post by andrewkfletcher on Aug 7, 2008 18:31:03 GMT 1
Andrew K. Fletcher Paignton, Devon U.K. +44 1803524117 Inclined Bed Therapy (IBT) Varicose Veins Study. Inclined To Sleep Inclined Yet? Dear Reader We are seeking more people with varicose veins who are willing to put IBT to the test and feel that this is something that your readers and colleagues will definitely find fascinating and some who have varicose veins and oedema and wish to avoid surgery may want to Help in this important trial and join our Free study which has already produced positive results in only 4 weeks as predicted! News Release: An Important Scientific Study into the cause of Varicose Veins and Oedema and Inclined Bed Therapy (I.B.T.) is now underway, which makes use of the way the body uses gravity to move solutes through the vessels to improve circulation and alter the pressure inside the veins to significantly reduce swelling and oedema. Our study is free for anyone to participate in. There are no products to be sold or marketed. What is Inclined Bed Therapy? Gravity was identified as the driving force behind circulation in trees in 1994 and was applied immediately to how circulation in the body benefits from the same interaction with salts and sugars in the circulation. A video showing the use of IBT with spinal cord injury can be viewed here. www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3D7tBQfCxQIBT is simply tilting the bed so that the head end is 15 cm’s or 6 inches higher than the foot end providing a level but tilted bed, hence the name Inclined Bed Therapy.0 People with varicose veins, oedema (fluid retention) are needed to participate in an online Diary Study, in order to prove that simply altering our sleeping position can have a positive affect on these problems. If you or someone you know has Varicose Veins, the standard advise is to raise your legs and tilt your bed the other way to IBT, Or to undergo risky and expensive surgery that is prone to fail because it does not address why the pressure inside the vein causes it to bulge. Which according to current physiology books makes sense. But what if that logic is incorrect? All the evidence from our study is showing that gravity is not a force we are struggling to overcome but a force that drives the fluids within the body. Are you prepared to take the 4 week challenge and provide us with your observations? Or do you know someone who has varicose veins and would like to watch them slowly but surely shrink and improve every night they go to bed instead of becoming more unsightly and uncomfortable? Our study is located on the Naked Scientists forum, who have a regular slot on BBC Radio. www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.msg121037#msg121037My wife’s calf showing clearly her varicose vein shadow, which went flat after 4 weeks of Inclined Bed Therapy back in 1994 and has not returned to its former state since. www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.msg121037#msg121037Alun has already confirmed my statement on the study thread that Varicose veins will shrink after 4 weeks of IBT and has supplied us with photographic before and after 4 weeks of IBT along with a diary account of his observations. And he is not alone. www.thenakedscientists.com/forum/index.php?topic=9843.75We are hoping to find at least 50 more pioneering volunteers who wish to avoid surgery and it’s inherent risks and failures, who are willing to provide us with photographic and a written account of their own experiences sleeping inclined. So far our study is running towards a predicted outcome that flies in the face of current physiology literature. Look forward to hearing from you. Yours sincerely Andrew K Fletcher
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